Why I believe in hell (and you do, too)

Comments

Here's a morsel to munch on. My older brother (who has his faults but bright moments) while reading the Revelation of St. John said this: "So, if God were to judge us a final time, and we all saw God's face..." He then mumbled into imperceptible talk.
I said, "and..."
He continued, "Well, if God is love and we see the face of God, the face of REAL love, who wouldn't immediately fall on their knees in repentance?"
"Someone who had absolutely no love."
"Then, they are already in Hell, aren't they?"

The basic concept being that true and full knowledge of God would have to mean love of God, which would have to mean repentance, which would have to mean that if we are all judged a final time the only people who would end up in Hell would be the people who really OUGHT to be there.

That being said, I've no idea what I actually believe.
hell does exist...for true...


life and death matters doesnt have to be so complicated..

'...who wouldn't immediately fall on their knees in repentance?"
"Someone who had absolutely no love."
"Then, they are already in Hell, aren't they?"

That's a more powerful formulation of the doctrine of hell than anything I've read in a church statement of beliefs.

I think it was one of the Catherines (of Siena? of Genoa?) who intimated that the fires of hell are the fires of God's love, which is torment for those who will not accept it. It was definitely Cath of Genoa who thought that if we could see how much more awful it is to offend God than it is to suffer, we would realise that even hell is full of God's mercy...

That brother of yours sounds like a wise chap.

Irrespective of how we formulate the doctrine of hell in our churches' Statements of Beliefs (and notice that the Apostles' Creed doesn't bother formulating it at all), I think we should universally integrate your clause that 'the only people who would end up in Hell would be the people who really OUGHT to be there'. In the end we'll look at God and think, 'Gosh, he was right to do everything he did.' (As I've mentioned in another comment, the anglican-turned-taoist Alan Watts suggested that even those in hell will say, 'Gosh, he was right to do everything he did' - and will burst into bliss-filled praise...)

Thanks for the comment, Shush.

I bet the truth of the matter is a lot more straightforward than we can presently imagine... We'll look back one day at the scheme of human history and think: 'Oh, I see...'

I have been thinking some on the previous post in which you suggested that if we really believed in Hell then we would be out grabbing every unbeliever and not wasting our time reading your blog or writing one of our own.

Of course, I took exception because the reason I am placing my devotional blogs online is because I passionately believe that God's Word has everything we need to live a life of godly influence for this generation and the next.

As I have pondered on this, these were some of the Scriptures that came to mind regarding how I should live:

But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

1 Thessalonians 4:10-12 NKJV

...the older women likewise, ... that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. Titus 2:3a, 4-5 NKJV

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

2 Timothy 2:14-15 NKJV

...warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus Colossians 1:28 NKJV

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians 3:11-14 NKJV

I'm afraid, even with these arguments, the idea of the need for Hell still doesn't make sense to me. Jewish theology also has an idea of transformation in the afterlife, but it's more of a purification process during which we all draw closer to the Eternal - or in extremely rare cases, where there is simply no good in the person to be redeemed, the essence - soul - whatever you wish to call it, is completely destroyed.

From within that context, you can imagine reincarnation, a heaven of sorts, or a lot of different scenarios. The purification process is generally regarded to be unpleasant - although there are wide differences as to how unpleasant - but not eternal. The official doctrine is that it does not last longer than a year, and that the actual length of time depends on how much "cleaning" needs to get done. The ideas on the afterlife aren't considered to be of particular importance compared to how to live life here on this plane of existence.

I guess the context of Jesus would change that though, particularly when you add in original sin. The only way for vicarious atonement to really be worth much is to have eternal Hell - because any non-eternal punishment implies that the person can atone for himself at some point, as the punishment itself would have some redemptive value. If only the cross can do the atoning, then with no other redemption available, punishment would be infinite, because the "stain" of sin would never be removed. Even in that context though, it seems insane - like an infinite loop of God. Eternal hell would be the crash of God.exe.

Very good points.

...wasting our time reading your blog or writing one of our own.

I didn't say or suggest that you shouldn't be writing your own. My blog post happened to have no 'evangelical' content - that's why your reading it or my writing would (necessarily) be a waste of time for someone whose view of hell dictated that evangelism was the Christian's top priority.

As for striving about words to no profit... I'm still convinced of the validity of my original point, which is that:

If one believes that the unevangelised go to hell,

or

If one believes that all who do not consciously accept salvation in this life go to hell

and

One accepts that the people around them may not have a chance to accept salvation if the gospel is not preached to them by a human being -

- then one faces an overwhelming moral duty to prioritise evangelism.

I don't know if you subscribe to the above beliefs, so I simply can't make any judgements about you - nor is it my intention to. In this matter, we must all search our own hearts and motives.

I agree that scripture should guide our actions. For a person who believes in the standard evangelical doctrine of hell, fervent evangelism would fulfil both the golden rule and the great commission. I'm not plucking ideas out of the air here - I'm trying to seriously discuss how we should apply Christ's central injunctions, and raising the question about whether what we believe and how we act are somehow in contradiction, perhaps inevitably so. If we claim to take hell seriously, should every member of the church not be "warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom"? I don't think it's 'striving about words' to insist that 'every' should really mean 'every'.

On the subject of striving about words: of course the crucial bit is 'without profit'. Paul himself strives about words all the time (Galatians 3:16 is the classic example!) Personally I think that applying deep thought to the issue of hell is of immense profit. It determines the way we communicate the gospel. If we back up our beliefs in hell - clearly a highly controversial doctrine - with sloppy reasoning, we alienate people. Clearly we are not called to simply quote the bible at people - we are called to prepare reasons for believing the things we believe. Discussing beliefs on a blog is one way of doing this.

I admit I've never managed to square aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business with the Great Commission. I'd be grateful for any suggestions!

Eternal hell would be the crash of God.exe.

You are as quotable as ever, Sheri.

I was hoping you'd weigh in on this, as I'm not clued up on Jewish afterlife theology. There's an ellipsis between the Jewish and Christian scriptures; Jesus' theology draws on assumptions about the afterlife that had arisen during the 400 years after Malachi. His teachings on hell may have been a reductio ad absurdum of these beliefs - in which case he would certainly agree with your God.exe statement. I lean towards this view myself.

Whatever Jesus' motives were, the idea of eternal hell is part of the Christian theological inheritance. If a year's purgation was part of the inheritance instead, we'd be able to focus on this life more, too, which wouldn't be a bad thing... Although Christians would start worrying about whether one could choose to refuse purgation - and whether you'd go to hell for refusing.

I personally can't relate much to the idea of purgation, no doubt because of my underexposure to the idea. I can't see how I'd be the same person after a purgation, given that my selfishness is part of me; burn it away and I vanish. But then I've also never understood how, according to the reincarnation model, one incarnation of a being really relates to any other incarnation, except that they share some sort of impersonal life spark. I feel that an organic transformation of my personality, one that maintained a continuity of identity, would be like the bit-by-bit rebuilding of Jason's boat rather than a purgation. And my own conviction - based on how I see myself (though no doubt coloured by my beliefs) - is that I could not perform this rebuilding myself, even given infinite time, as my motives for rebuilding myself would be selfish: I'd just be moving the same planks of wood around.

The Christian model is about grafting a new self onto the old, and purports to solve the problem of our inability to rebuild ourselves. The old self fades, the new self grows, and the person is kept intact. What links the old person to the new is the original decision to submit to this process (ie conversion) - which is essentially a death and rebirth. So if this decision is not made, what then? This is where the idea of permanent separation from God arises - although, as we both agree, the idea is absurd. (Perhaps the absurdity of hell is a biblical koan!) But it seems to me that the question of 'what then?' also arises if you introduce the idea of choice into the idea of being purged, even if the proposed purgation is only for a year at most. It depends on how much free will you want in your theology. Calvinists (and Lutherans) want none, and they still believe in hell...

It may be, as Shush Now (and her brother) said, that all who come face to face with God's love will automatically submit, unless they are utterly devoid of love, which is perhaps impossible. Or it may be that 'refusers' get forcibly purged; but I think that, in a real sense, a person 'saved' against their will would not be the same person afterwards. Perhaps the outer darkness of which Jesus speaks echoes with the last shouts of these 'old' selves who wouldn't agree to be extinguished - it's inhabited not by living souls in torment, but by 'imprints' of last moments of anguished resistance.

Anyway, mine are distinctively Christian premises, and I'm talking about how I have sufficient reason to think that hell follows from such premises to dissuade me from rejecting the doctrine. I don't pretend that the doctrine follows from Buddhist premises or Zoroastrian premises or even Jewish premises. My reasons for accepting the basic Christian message (which I did at age fourteen, when I had no brain at all) were non-rational. But I appear to be stuck with it...

Just a bit more comment on the Scriptures I posted. The particular points I saw in these passages and others, as a Christian seeking to apply God's Word to my life were:

1. I am to live my life everyday in tune with the Lord and His will for my life, applying His Word as I would look in a mirror in the morning and see what is needed.

2. This life I am to live may be ordinary work, quietly going about my business in a way that will glorify the Lord I serve, and provide physically or emotionally for the needs of others, particularly those in my family.

3. As a mature woman (which I am :) I am to encourage younger women to value their role as wife and mother - (or grandmother) loving their families and "walking properly towards those on the outside (unbelievers) so that the Word of God "may not be blasphemed."

4. I am to spend quality time studying God's Word and sharing it with others as a teacher, writer, musician, or whatever way God has gifted me. In doing this, I will be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within me - to whoever God brings across my path as I follow Him.

5 Words are indeed important for communicating God's truth, but striving or arguing about them often hurts those who hear. In-house discussion of doctrinal truth among mature believers is part of family activities - done in love, careful to avoid confusion that would damage the faith of a younger believer.

6. Presenting "every man perfect in Christ Jesus" is a joint effort of all of us using our gifts as God leads to build up believers and introduce others to faith in Jesus Christ.

I have not been posting on blogs for very long, but I presently have several on different networks that seem to reach people in different walks of life, countries, and life situations. I have never had more opportunity to share with unbelievers than I have in these past three months. I am still in awe of the possibilities to share God's Word in this way, and pray that I will be faithful to Him and a testimony to those without.

This discussion brings up a question I've always had about Christian theology, particularly as it relates to the Great Commission. While contextually, the moral argument for evangelism makes sense - you could even make a moral argument for the "convert or die" techniques used by the church for centuries in that context - but I've heard that it's also a Christian commandment: that you're required to evangelize in some way.

Is this true? If so, is there a belief in some punishment for not evangelizing?

I also wonder about those who evangelize verbally, but through their actions, say exactly the opposite. So many people who openly evangelize and are visibly religious are also colossal pricks about their religion, and by definition, they connect their religion to their overall douchebaggery. The message that they send is that theirs is a religion of hatred, intolerance, arrogance, and evil, even while they preach about love. The "love them to death" theology in particular scares the daylights out of me. In practice, these people would be doing exactly the opposite of the Great Commission. I've always wondered what Christian theology had to say of people who did that.

And if we could actually connect some unwashed sinner's fate to a persuasion by a particular evangelist that Christianity was not good for him, would the evangelist go to the flames and the sinner get a second shot? (God intervening and saying, "you were deceived about me - here's the real deal - what choice do you want to make?")

I also wonder in much this context what is the belief regarding Christians on Judgment day who have not lived such good lives, but are "saved"? Is there some correction for the sins in this life, or are believers immediately swept up to Heaven, unrepentant and all? Or, is it the opposite, that if you have any sin on you, you go to Hell with all of us heathens? (My childhood church taught the latter.) Honestly, if Heaven were populated with people like our recent internet tough guys, it would be no less hellish than the place with the flames.
My night terrors, even at an early age, were metaphysical – and probably very common, although I have never plucked up the courage to ask anyone if they shared my fears. In particular, I feared perpetual existence.
You are not alone; though I do not fear it so much as loathe the possibility, having given it due consideration. Any truly merciful God would not subject her children to eternal existence. Given enough time, even Heaven would become hellish.

John

...striving or arguing about them often hurts those who hear.

As I was saying over on CtianX's blog recently, arguing makes me feel sick, so I'm more than happy to avoid it! I thought I'd avoid giving the impression that I was presenting an argument by the ingenious conceit ('conceit' is perhaps doubly appropriate :)) of posting both sides of the issue: why I can't believe in hell, and why I must. I was describing difficulties that I've had with the doctrine ever since I was a young Christian, so I thought it would be of help to other people in my situation. In my last of the three posts, I want to look at some solutions to the paradox, ones that do justice to both sides of the argument.

Please don't think that I'm in any way criticising your life or ministry - I think everything you're doing is marvellous. Obviously I DON'T think that blogging is a waste of time, or else I wouldn't do it myself! Moreover, I think the doctrine of calling, with its roots in passages such as those you quoted, is a beautiful and desperately needed doctrine; moreover, it helps us resolve the question of how we are to integrate evangelism into our life's work. More of that in my next post. But I will say now that my own answer to what we should do with the doctrine of hell (which will be the subject of the third of this trilogy of posts on hell) looks the same as yours. No argument whatsoever!

My points in the first post were aimed at those whose formulation of the doctrine of hell is so simplistic that it raises the question of why we aren't doing more to evangelise. I'm sure that you are not guilty of this, so none of my challenges apply to you.

I can't see a way to address important issues without engaging in debate. Without debate, we would have no doctrine of the Trinity, no canon of Scripture, none of the church's great creedal confessions. But I completely take on board your reminders to try to do this in a way that does not harm listeners; given my turgid style, I definitely need constant reminding! And I hope you will continue to comment; I appreciate your input.

All best,

Nick

The way we present the gospel and doctine to other people is also a part of giftedness. Many people come to the Lord by way of intellectual discussion (ie; Francis Schaeffer's ministry, or C.S Lewis) You obviously have the gift of humor, and I do hope you will come to a clear teaching at the end of this series of posts, particularly since there are many who do not seem aquainted with what God's Word teaches.

My project, as my grown children left home was to read through a Bible, marking verses with that young person in mind. I have one daughter, three sons, three daughter's in law and one son in law. So over a period of 20 years I marked Bibles for single sons, newly wed daughter, married without children, married with small children, 40 year old executive son in law with teenagers - and finally, my son in law's mother who asked if I would mark one for her.

Of course, as you can guess, this was a gift to myself even more than a gift for them. Reading each in about a three month period (like you would read a novel) gave me a better understanding of the whole picture and how the Old and New testament are all one piece of cloth. It also increased my faith in God's Word as I realised that it has everything we need to live a life of godly influence no matter our age or circumstances.

Having finished (I think - I don't want to take on my 13 grandchildren, I will let their parents do that) I started work on my book THE GOD WHO SEES ME - A Devotional Prayer Journal. I had no idea about blogging until my son introduced me to Blogspot. My main web site is http://devotionalprayerjournal.blogspot.com/

In Christ,

Charlotte

The instruction in Matthew, um, 28 is to 'make disciples of all nations'; there are other formulations in other gospels (the one in Mark isn't considered trustworthy by scholars who think that the ending of that gospel was tagged on) and in the book of Acts. So it's an explicit commandment. Also, Paul points out in his letter to the Romans (ch 10) that you can't expect people to respond to the gospel if nobody preaches it.

As for douchebaggery, Jesus had plenty to say about it. He barked at the religious leaders who loaded people with 'burdens too heavy to bear' but who didn't lift a finger to help them; at the hypocrites who 'shut the kingdom of God from men', neither entering themselves, nor allowing others to enter; at those who travel the earth to make one proselyte, 'and then make him twice as much a son of hell' as themselves.

The most important thing from a Christian point of view is Jesus' claim that to see him is to see God. Jesus went around granting forgiveness of sins to people who neither expected to be forgiven nor asked; he enjoyed the company of society's 'sinners' and outcasts so much that he was accused of being a drunkard and a reveler; and the only people he ever seemed to get angry with were the people who positioned themselves between humanity and God. At the same time, 'bearing' our transgressions was not a matter of waving his hand and letting us off: Jesus shows us that bearing our sins is literally agony for God, and that he is willing to go through it.

I imagine that God will be much tougher on those who effectively bar people from his (wanton) love than on people who show up before his throne 'stained' with sin.

Basically, there's huge diversity of opinion within Christianity regarding who gets saved and who doesn't. Catholics would say that's why we need a Pope: if the church is the Body of Christ, then his decision-making faculty should be represented by a single unit. Tricky. Personally, I'm suspicious of any version of the good news that doesn't strike me as particularly good news.

[this is good]
Hi Nick. Hey, ever need a refresher in the subtle connotations inherent in Christianese, and Christianity as its own subculture residing in its own peculiar anti-intellectual ghetto -- just post some more posts like these two! LOL! I will try to respond soon as these posts were gems, my friend.

Hi Charlotte,

That's a wonderful and unique approach to reading the bible - and I can't imagine a better way to gain insight into how scripture relates to a wide range of circumstances and personalities. You can't fake that kind of depth of understanding - and it's great that you're sharing these insights with a wider audience.

I hope that I come to a clear teaching, too! You've pushed me to rethink how I present the last of the three posts, so I'm trying to do some polishing before posting. As ever, your suggestions will be very welcome.

Many thanks for taking the time to comment, Charlotte. I've posted a link to your devotional journal.

All best,

Nick

Hooray! It's the cavalry!

"Personally I think that applying deep thought to the issue of hell is of immense profit. It determines the way we communicate the gospel."


Not sure I agree...


But another great post. Keep them coming (even the long ones!).



Thanks very much, Murray. Could you elaborate on why you disagree? I meant that hell is such a knotty issue that if you try to communicate the doctrine without having given it sufficient thought, the inevitable objections will leave you flumoxed. The 'pop apologies' for the doctrine with which many Christians are armed (e.g. the ones my mentor Mark relied on in the first post) just don't cut it, in my opinion.

Also, our beliefs about hell colour our beliefs about God. A God who has predestined a remnant to salvation and who will fling the rest into hell in accordance with his eternal decree is very different from a God who reluctantly says to free creatures who reject him, 'Your will be done.' The conception of what it means to be human is also incredibly different in these cases.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
NKJV

"It determines the way we communicate the gospel."

I disagree that is should determine the way we communicate the gospel.

I believe that God calls us and gives the opportunity to step into the light. For me it is a positive doctrine of affirmation. Throughout the New Testament there are numerous instances of those who take that step, I think particularly of the woman who believed enough to touch the hem of Jesus' garment, in the positive belief that she would be healed.

If you believe that there is a God, and if you further believe that Jesus was God incarnate and that in his death he offered us salvation - then what do we need to do. What is God offering us - salvation.

We need to take that 'irrational', 'illogical', 'existential' step in faith. Just as there is no certainty in taking that step, so there is no certainty in what will happen if we do not take that step. Just as we have no detailed knowledge of what will have after death in salvation.

I do not believe that

"A God who has predestined a remnant to salvation..."

For me the doctrine of hell and/or purgatory is not a key component of my faith. I accepted am a Christian and I go to church because I have to, not from some feeling of the consequences of what will happen if I do not but more the positive compulsion that I believe and that I have to go, because I need to worship God.

Do you pray for the dead?


Gotcha - I think I see your point, and I agree with it; but it's only because we have thought about hell that we can present a 'positive doctrine of affirmation'. A person who believes in what I've called the standard evangelical doctrine of hell (such as I grew up with) would be lying by omission if s/he presented the gospel without mentioning the great risk inherent in rejecting the gospel. Because they really think that if you don't accept Jesus during your earthly sojourn, you'll burn in the lake of fire for eternity. For them to leave out this deatil would be akin, I think, to trying to get someone out of the path of a juggernaut by shouting to them that something wonderful awaits them on the pavement. In other words, you and I can focus on a positive gospel simply because we have rejected the standard evangelical doctrine of hell. But we've rejected it because we've given it deep thought.

Hell and evil, I think, are both purely negative concepts. Sin has no substance - it is just a negation of goodness. Hell is the same: a denial of God's love. Freedom necessarily entails the (at least theoretical) possibility of these denials. But because hell is a negative concept, it has no place in a positive proclamation of the gospel.

Nevertheless, people will ask about hell if they're investigating Christianity... We need to have thought about how we answer them. That was pretty much all I was getting at when I said that thinking about hell will determine how we present the gospel. I certainly don't mean that it should be part of our evangelistic presentation - I think we're of one mind on that.

We need to take that 'irrational', 'illogical', 'existential' step in faith. Just as there is no certainty in taking that step, so there is no certainty in what will happen if we do not take that step.

That's a profound parallel, and I'll take me some time to unpack it. Excellent food for thought. I'm reading it in the light of a post I read on your blog, actually - one which has informed my thinking since I came across it: Rowan Williams' amazing Easter address, wher he talks about the completely gratuitous nature of what happens to us after death. We are snuffed out, and God calls us back into being, just as he called forth creation in the first place. We can no more penetrate the mysteries of the hereafter than some (obviously hypothetical) observer could have foreseen the creation.

I do not believe that 'A God who has predestined a remnant to salvation..."

Me neither (sorry, Calvinists!). But the fact that you and I don't believe it certainly influences the way we talk about Christianity to interested inquirers. I've heard Calvinists argue that we shouldn't indiscriminately tell people that God loves them, since God must only love his elect. While I can see how you can derive that horrid view from (selected portions of) scripture, I think the weight of the biblical record is overwhelmingly against it.

I'm still waiting for a Calvinist to come along and pick a fight on this issue... Where are all the Calvinist Voxers?

[this is good]
This is such an essential verse. It makes it clear that if I end up eternally separated from God's love, it's not down to God, but down to me. It's not what God wants at all.

John 3:18-20

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed John 3:18-20 NKJV

No profound or deeply thought out comments from me, I'm afraid I can't keep up with the intellectual and theological jargon that is in this post and the comments that followed. I'll just keep it short and simple - I like what you had to say and how you said it.
Thanks very much, Tom. To be honest, I think I'm a little too keen on using jargon - it's an attempt to sound like I know what on earth I'm talking about...

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