toothless hell, part 1

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"if I was not free to refuse it, then it would not be a real offer at all, and I would not be an autonomous person but a person-shaped automaton."
Yes, we must have the freedom to accept God's offer, we must take that step of faith. There will be consequences of not accepting His offer. But can we really know what those consequences are? Who are we, that we should expect to know those final consequences in advance?
More importantly - do we really believe that someone can resist God's love thoughout the whole of eternity?

I agree that we can't know the exact details of the consequences. No matter what people say, there isn't really a neat, coherent biblical picture of hell.

More importantly - do we really believe that someone can resist God's love thoughout the whole of eternity?

Like Mother Julian, we might think that hell will ultimately be empty; but if we're truly free, then the possibility is still real. This possibility guarantees our freedom. However, I think that the idea of people resisting God's love throughout eternity isn't as ridiculous and far-fetched as it seems.

An analogy with the Buddhistic system might be instructive; for Buddhists it's one's attachements - both to external 'things' and to one's illusory 'self' - that keeps one bound to the cycle of rebirth and death. The fact that 'life is suffering' is meant to encourage us to seek a way out of the cycle; but it is conceivable that a person might never relinquish the illusion of selfhood and escape, even if subjected to increasingly hellish incarnations.

In Christianity, the self is not regarded as illusory, but as real. Personhood in Christianity has an ontological status. (John Zizioulas says really interesting stuff about the Patristic 'ontologisation' of personhood, but most of it is beyond me). The Christian notion of giving up one's self to the rebirth that constitutes salvation, then, is an even bigger deal than the Buddhistic giving up of an illusory self. I don't think it's absurb, still less logically fallacious (as Tom Talbot would have it) to say that some people may indefinitely postpone the relinquishment of self. Hell in this respect would be full of proctrastinators, always putting off till tomorrow the salvation they might have today, for the sake of clinging to their familar selves.. This would be Lewis' idea that the door to hell is locked from the inside.

Who knows? I'm not dogmatic about any of these hypotheses. But it seems to me that the possibility of eternal alienation from God must be there, even if it's purely theoretical, as a guarantee of freedom.

[this is good]
Agreed. It is probably not impossible for 'some' to resist throughout the whole of eternity. But we are getting far too theoretical and I'm too middle-aged for too much theory.

Tell me about it... Over on my vox work blog the latest comment-thread has revolved around 'childish jokes about eggs' (go and look if you don't believe me - it's in my links). Coming back here makes my brain curdle.

In a good way, mind.

[this is good]

I like the direction that you're headed with this series...It looks like, ultimately, you're trying to identify the "irreducible minimums" that evangelicals should embrace in their doctrine of hell and I like it. This has been an area where we've tended to over-develop our theologies (especially true of some charsmatics and pentecostals that I've sojourned with through the years).

Of course, any half-way respectable Calvinist (which I'm NOT) would argue your presupposition that anyone has a choice is spurious. God is so holy that he actually created lots aand lots of souls for the express purpose of stoking the fires of hell because (and this is where it gets really crazy to me) their punishment will bring him glory.

Do we really believe that someone can resist God's love thoughout the whole of eternity?

Frankly, I don't find this difficult to believe at all. Salvation cannot be had apart from God's grace. I cannot find any indication in scripture that God will extend his grace or that the Holy Spirit will continue striving with the hearts of people in hell. In the absence of grace, people will continue forever in whatever shocked, angry or depressed state their incarceration promts them to. Probably a worse fate than literal fire and brimstone.

Interpretations of Peter's writings regarding Christ's witness in Hades are exegetically flawed if they are equate Hell (The Lake of Fire, if you like) with Hades (which the Rabbis of the first century taught was the holding place for the dead until the arrival of Messiah). Peter says that after Christ's death, he descended to Hades (where the souls of all dead Jews who kept the Law went) and preached the Gospel there. At the Ressurection, Hades was emptied and, in essence, shut down. Hell, as evangelical's understand it, is an extension of the rabinical teachings about Gehenah (where the souls of Gentiles and Jews who wouldn't follow the rules went). This distinction would have been VERY important to both Peter and the people to whom he was writing (Christians of Jewish descent) when he wrote. (Sorry, had to throw that in to justify all the money I spent on theological training.)

I came away from reading this with this thought: God has not given us (no matter what Tim LeHey says) a step by step, complete dosier for how eternity will play out. I'll leave to Him the business of sorting out the balance between his loving goodness and his holy wrath...Goodness preaches a lot better though.

The discussion about whether people could go on forever rejecting God's salvation reminds me of Jesus' story of the rich man in Hades, who looks across a gulf to Abraham:

"Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him,'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him,'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead. Luke 16:27-31 NKJV

And then Jesus did rise from the dead and they were still not persuaded.

A few years back I remembered an author promoting her book on people who clinically died, went to Heaven and came back to tell the wonder and beauty they saw. When asked about Hell, she stated in fact she came apon many of those stories, but left them out of the book to keep it positive.

Go figure...

Thanks for the insights into the hades / gehenna distinction. As for irreducible minimums, I think that once you've smashed the brittle standard evangelical doctrine of hell, you can thoughfully rebuild it so that it looks surprisingly like it did before - and is certainly fully 'orthodox'. The difference is that the reconstruction has little 'windows' built in that enable us to see its inner significance. All of the seemingly counterintutive facets of the doctrine (hell's eternality, the impossibility of repentance after death, the need to have heard the gospel in this lifetime, etc.) contain hidden wisdom that needs to be brought out; otherwise, they just seem gratuitously cruel.

God has not given us (no matter what Tim LeHey says) a step by step, complete dosier for how eternity will play out.

Absolutely. If God had wanted to do that, he would have - and we would have a very different bible.

Definitely - there's enormous psychological insight in that parable. The rich man is assuming, among other things, that our moral decisions are determined by our circumstances. He thinks that certain conditions (someone visiting us from the dead) will make a person repent. The parable denies this; it points out that no matter how much you motivate someone to repent, there will be some who'd simply never do it.

Ay ay ay...

That reminds me of the bit in the bible where the sheep and the goats are separated, and the goats say to Jesus: 'But Lord, wherefore dost thou destine us for the punishment prepared for the devil and his angels? Wouldst thou not prefer to keep it positive?' And Jesus says, 'Oh, thou guys!' and they all go out and get Krispy Kremes.

I love that bit! It's so positive!

I knew there was something holy (hole-ee?) about Krispy Kremes. Thank you folks, I'll be here all week.
*snare, cymbal*

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Nick

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