lunchbreak musings: seekers' solidarity

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[this is good]
AH, a man after my own heart. I used to be a foot soldier in these debates, but tired of it all because of the lack of Christian charity in these theological battles, and in myself. I have come to understand that doctrine is a lot like the rules of English -- you have to know the rules of the language to write a story, but they are not the story. Thus my calling myself an Apostle's Creed Christian - its the narrative, not the doctrine.

I still believe, however, on the basic unity and clearness of the Biblical narrative - the perscuity of scripture shouldn't take the hit because people don't like what they read and try to sidestep or subvert what is clearly written (after all, the word "election" is biblical, and it means exactly what you might think it would mean). The human heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it? Take a look at what American Christians did to a 2000 year old writing about the sovereign monarchy of the Kingdom of God with Christ as King: after they revolted from George III they reworked Christianity into a republic where each individual chose their Savior... Revival, anyone?

Anyway... i no longer identify Christianity doctrinally, but narratively instead... I think that Creedal Christianity has room for differing doctrinal dialogs (as long as they are not heterodox) while giving each camp an opportunity to express unity and solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the Faith.

Great post Nick.
[this is good]

I like the 'rules of English' analogy a lot, and I'm been an admirer of the term 'Apostle's Creed Christian' ever since I saw your blog. You can't really go wrong with the early creeds... they hold together the polarities that comprise the mystery of Christianity. A vast amount of tension exists in the creeds - between law and grace, manhood and deity, etc - and everyone knows that tension makes for good narrative.

(I remember a story by Frederica Mathews-Green about an Antiochian (I think) Orthodox priest who was set to lecture at an evangelical conference, and the organisers asked him to fax over his church's mission statement (!). He thought about it for a while, then faxed the Apostles' Creed. The organisers said, 'Yeah, that looks orthodox enough.' * slaps forehead *)

Despite my issues with the idea of the perspecuity of scripture, I agree about sidestepping or subverting - and your point about reworking Christianity into a republic is very interesting. Election is a good example of an issue that's non-negotiable but which you have to prepare before you can digest it. It's undigestable because it seems so hard to reconcile with the equally biblical suggestion that we can choose to accept or reject God. What does choice mean in the context of election? What does election mean in the context of choice? Is election corporate or individual? Is it an inscrutible decree, or is it based on God's 'foreknowledge' of who would reject or accept him? Should we tell people that God loves them when it's possible that he doesn't? (I've seen that horrific latter question pondered at length and answered in the affirmative.) These are things that demand our attention, but on which I do think we can agree to disagree within the framework of creedal Christianity.

Ya know, i wasn't ever really good at spelling... Thank you Jesus for spell check, right? "perspecuity." Dammit.

In an attempt not to write a dissertation, i will narrow my position to predestination and election to one word: perspective.

Everyone trying to argue from God's perspective is a fool, anyone arguing from a purely human view point is trapped by the limits of human logic. Contrary to popular belief, man is not the measure of all things... Thus, after years of reading, arguing, and praying i have come up only with this, which i may have shared with you, Nick, before: On this side of eternity the sign over the entrance to the kingdom of heaven reads, "Whosoever will, come." This is our primary proclamation: if election is true, then its God doing it, and He isn't burning an X on everyone's forehead so we can know. However -- as we enter into this kingdom, and after we pass over that last river, we'll look back and see the words on the other side of that narrow gate and read, "You didn't choose me, i chose you." Just a matter of perspective.

The analogy breaks down, of course, but you get the gist. Not bad for all the years of figuring i put in, huh? What can i say, my dear Mother always did say i was too smart for my own good.

Good old spell cheek. Smell chuck. Sell chick. Agh!

I'm 100% with you on the perspective thing and the two signs over the door. I'm essentially a Lutheran without a church; mystery and paradox are fine by me. Mystery, paradox and beer. But I've seen people take this line on Calvinist discussion boards, only to be met with strident accusations that it's a slippery slope to Arminianism and therefore synergism. Ay ay ay...

[this is good]

Wow...well said, Nick. I am humbled and convicted. It is so difficult to repress the inate human longing to be right, isn't it? I feel it well up in me whenever I am confronted by a Reformist or a Dispensationalist...I think it's the "isms" that are a big turn off to me.

When I was in college, a very wise professor introduced me to the idea of an Exegitical Theology...one that truly allows the Bible to interpret itself. This is actuallty a core value of Refomist Theology ("sola scriptura") but without the artificial imposition of human presupposition. For example, the Calvinist imposes the presupposition that the entirety of scripture must be interpreted in light of election; the Dispensationalist imposes the presupposition that the entirety of scripture must be interpreted in light of an understanding of historical divisions; Joel Osteen (he's the closest thing to a living "ism" we have in the US)imposes the presupposition that the entirety of scripture must be interpreted in light of promises regarding prosperity. Each of these "isms" has it's antithesis: Armenianism, Pentecostalism, Liberation Theology...

What if scripture regarding election and free will are handled with equal emphasis? Historical epochs and the unchanging grace of God? Prosperity and adversity? All of this truth in tension? It does lead us back to the creeds of the early church fathers (who were much more interested in defining what unites us rather than what seperates us).

This wise professor told us that truth was like a road in West Texas...narrow, straight and lined with ditches on both sides. The wise man steers a staight course on the road, midfull of the truths in tension. It doesn't matter which ditch you're in if your in a ditch.

Unfortunately, my tendency to be confrontational (pride?) generally ends with me getting shot in the butt from both ditches.

Thanks for the reminder.

Blessings.

Can I have mystery, paradox and tequila?

[this is good]

Such good points.. I imagine that people's preconceptions were their biggest barrier to connecting with Jesus 2000 years ago. If Osteen is a living ism (ha!), Jesus was a walking collection of paradoxes - and subsequent generations have tried to solve the paradoxes by cutting off one of the horns. I like the idea of the exegetical theology that accepts the bible's tensions and doesn't view them through lenses - will have to get hold of that book you recommended a while back.

I can read it when I've finally finished Middlemarch. Ie 2012.

"Tequila with your paradox, sir?"

Mind those ditches!

The cessationist has at some point prayed really, really hard for a miracle - and got diddly squat. The cessationist is some guy whose cancer didn't go away, or whose daughter died, or whose wife left, you name it.
"A conservative is a liberal who just got mugged. A liberal is a conservative who just got arrested."

One thing binds us all together: we live in a more or less silent universe. Let's admit it!
Here we disagree. God speaks more loudly through the wonders and laws of the universe than most people are aware. The problem is that most people either aren't listening or only hear what they want to (i.e., that it is all only 6,000 years old).

Maybe God's silence is a necessary condition of human solidarity. Maybe the compassion we might feel towards our fellow seekers is the thing that we, as seekers, are supposed to find.
Reminds me of being a kid. After I was about ten or so, my mom started telling us to work things out for ourselves when we would fight only stepping in to stop outright bloodshed or breakage of valuables.

John
One Bourbon, one Scotch, one Beer -- George Thorogood, theologian's friend.

On the one hand, the problem, of course, is that the documents (The Christian Scriptures) are indeed 2000 years old. TWO THOUSAND YEARS. I took several courses here at the University with Professor Carlin Barton, an unbelievable gifted scholar of the ancient Romans. It has taken her most of her life to even begin to understand a vanished people's thoughts articulated in a dead language -- the Romans did not think like like we do, and neither did the actors and writers of these Scriptures. Christianity has a designed by God weak spot: the person who is engaged in the foolishness of proclaiming the narrative of Christ. The fragility of this person's position is alarming -- he can be neither a country bumpkin preaching the Scriptures as if they were new with no past or an intellectual isolated in an academic ivory tower.

On the other hand, the narrative is a simple one, seemingly hardwired into human experience, Lewis's "true myth" thesis, that transcends time, culture, gender, ethnicity, and even class. Hell, one of my earliest memories has to do with understanding that Christ loved me and gave Himself for me.

For myself, subjectively, any understanding of a coherent Christian theology begins in the book of Ecclesiastes. Augustine had an interesting idea in writing his City of God... Conversion begins with a person's unique "dark night of the soul," the realization that their feet are firmly planted in mid-air, that the City of Man has, at its heart, vanity and madness.

I am also a Lutheran without a Church, or an NT Wright Anglican -- love those 39 Articles...
[this is good]

A conservative is a liberal who just got mugged. A liberal is a conservative who just got arrested.

Fab. And a postmodernist?

God speaks more loudly through the wonders and laws of the universe than most people are aware

I have problems with this idea of God speaking 'through' things, as though the things are his mouth. Does that count as speaking? It seems to me that it's ventriloquism at best...

[this is good]

Heavens, that's given me a lot to think about. any understanding of a coherent Christian theology begins in the book of Ecclesiastes

Yes! I had that exact 'revelation' too, after spending some time wondering why such a gloomy piece of pessimism was in the bible.

one of my earliest memories has to do with understanding that Christ loved me and gave Himself for me

My mum says I used to harp on about God since I could speak... I think this is why Christians have such a problem trying to explain our beliefs - we try to explain the rationale we've attached to powerful basic intuitions. I've realised quite late that my own belief system is virtually indefensible - and yet I can't see anyone arguing me out of it, because it's deeper than just a set of propositions.

Fab. And a postmodernist?

Someone who just ate the Alice B. Toklas brownies.


God speaks more loudly through the wonders and laws of the universe than most people are aware

I have problems with this idea of God speaking 'through' things, as though the things are his mouth. Does that count as speaking? It seems to me that it's ventriloquism at best...

I am in the process of co-authoring a textbook, by which I hope to speak to decades of students. Artists use the language of their medium [1] to convey a message. Why then can God not do the same through the universe?

Admittedly, read literally, the message appears to be "Life is dark, empty, and cold [2]". But then, I've never been much of a literalist...

John

[1] Art (good art) does have a message (yes, even the modern stuff). The problem is that many artists mumble.

[2] Technically, space has no temperature; however, left in space, you would radiate energy away until you hit black body temprature, which is about 3 degrees above absolute zero for the universe as a whole.

You said, "However -- as we enter into this kingdom, and after we pass over that last river, we'll look back and see the words on the other side of that narrow gate and read, "You didn't choose me, i chose you." Just a matter of perspective"

I believe I heard this analogy years ago by J. Vernon Mcgee.

[this is good]

timmyjohn said, "What if scripture regarding election and free will are handled with equal emphasis? "

The Bible teaches both and we cannot hope to completely understand it - but certainly we can take His Word for it whenever we come upon a passage without trying to fit it into our own little systematic box, or the box someone else has built.

I truly believe the Bible can stand alone, and is understandable when we read the whole of it with the assistance of the indwelling Holy Spirit which we receive when we place our faith in Him.

Great minds...

someone who just ate the Alice B Toklas brownies...: sod 'incredulity about metanarratives' - that's probably the most brilliant nutshell description of the postmodernist that I've ever seen. Will take me a while to unpack all of its implications, though.

I'm looking forward to the textbook - if it's as illuminating as your comments, I think I'm in for a treat. But re God speaking through the medium of the universe... I'm still not sure. I presume your book isn't going to leave anyone in any doubt over whether it was written, had always existed, or spontaneously appeared in an explosion. And regarding art and artists - I agree... but If we don't know whether any given work of art was created, always existed, or spontaneously emerged, we can't even say that it is art, never mind interpret the meaning of it.

But re God speaking through the medium of the universe... I'm still not sure. ... And regarding art and artists - I agree... but If we don't know whether any given work of art was created, always existed, or spontaneously emerged, we can't even say that it is art, never mind interpret the meaning of it.

There is a sub-branch of art known as found art, which makes use of everyday items and derives its meaning from the interaction of the artist's description and your expectations. Apply that concept to the universe (especially in light of the "I am the word" comment), and see where it gets you.

Of course, this raises the associated question of "What if this universe was just a practice piece?" But that's getting a little silly...

John

There is a sub-branch of art known as found art, which makes use of everyday items and derives its meaning from the interaction of the artist's description and your expectations. Apply that concept to the universe (especially in light of the "I am the word" comment), and see where it gets you.

I imagine it would lead to some interesting ideas - but can you take this approach if you don't know whether there's an artist in the first place? Where the universe is concerned, we don't know if there's an artist or not - on that issue the universe itself is, it seems to me, silent. I agree that we can try to read nature 'as though' it were the communications or artistic output of a deity. But one thing you would have to say about such a deity (or deities) is that it/he/she/they is/are willing to leave us in the dark about whether or not we and the universe are a part of his/her/their art project. (Perhaps God is hiding so as not to invite too close a relationship with his practice piece...)

[this is good]

but can you take this approach if you don't know whether there's an artist in the first place?

There have been a few exhibitions like that (where art is concerned, there have been exhibitions of darn near enything and everything). In those exhibitions, part of the tension came from trying to discover if there had actually ever been an intent behind the piece. But now we're into post-modernism and need those brownies...


Where the universe is concerned, we don't know if there's an artist or not - on that issue the universe itself is, it seems to me, silent. I agree that we can try to read nature 'as though' it were the communications or artistic output of a deity.

This is both true and fair. Perhaps my comment should have been "given a choice between a multiply-retranslated book and a self-evident universe, I'll take the latter as the word of God"?

But one thing you would have to say about such a deity (or deities) is that it/he/she/they is/are willing to leave us in the dark about whether or not we and the universe are a part of his/her/their art project.

Yep - which brings us full circle to a central question: "What is man that thou art mindful of him?"

John


I know I shouldn't find the skeptic's annotated bible so entertaining, but I just can't help it...

I know I shouldn't find the skeptic's annotated bible so entertaining, but I just can't help it...

Think of it as "peer review" for religion. After all, they aren't starting from the assumption that the people who did the translation were on a mission from God, which means that they are uniquely suited to point out the errors[1].

John

[1] Whether the errors come from the translation, the interpretation, or the original source is left as an exercise for the student.

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Nick

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