death of an apologist; or, why Dawkins is right

Comments

Meh. The four horsemen don't impress me much - there have been many smarter atheists than they. They don't actually contribute anything to the discussion - the ideas for and against the existence of God have been hashed and rehashed for ages - they just popularize anti-religious prejudice. Pointing to a group of people (in their case, the religious), and saying "these people are the problem with the world" is hardly anything new. Antitheism is one of the fashionable forms of intolerance right now - and understandably so - a lot of havoc has been wreaked in the world in the name of religion.

I hesitate to say from that, though, that religion is evil. It's not particularly evil - but merely particularly human. A lot of good gets done for the sake of faith - and also a lot of evil. Makes sense - human beings can be both good and evil, and are usually both at once. If we're going to say that religion is evil because evil has been done in the name of religion, then shouldn't we evaluate every other social structure on that same basis? What about government? Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, the Janjaweed - certainly great evil has been done by and for these. What about social groups altogether? We could argue that racism, sexism, classism, and almost every other nasty "ism" out there is the conflict between groups of people. Why not eliminate social groups because they're evil? Tribalism and whatnot.

As to "religious bankruptcy," there are stories of Sufi mystics who, in a state of ecstacy, have proclaimed that they are no longer Muslims - that they are neither Jew, nor Christian, nor any other class - that they have transcended religion into a new connection with the Divine. I've never heard of anything similar within Judaism, but then Jews have always believed that God transcends Judaism - that this is merely our particular contract with the Eternal - that others may have their own. All of our sacred texts are laden with violence - but so is the history of the world. For better or worse, these are our stories.
[this is good]

Agreed. It's not so much the evil that's done 'in the name of religion' that I'm talking about - people will hurt each other over anything that they care about; if religion is evil, so is just about everything else. What I'm interested in is the basic religious problem that trying to accommodate the will of God is like swallowing a grenade. It’s more than anyone can handle. There seems to be an implicit acknowledgement of this problem in the bible, in that we find God expressing a desire to alter us so that we can be moved to obey him spontaneously.

Liberal apologies for the biblical God's 'tyrannical' deeds usually seem to boil down to arguments from cultural relativism or appeals to 'progressive revelation', which to the anti-religionist just look like admissions that religion belongs to a cruel past and should be consigned to the same historical dustbin as Molech-worship. The answer of liberal theology is to recast God as someone who meets us on our own terms. But what if the wrath of God, his violence and (in critics' eyes) 'evil' are simply what God looks like to any human placed in the position of having to appropriate something of his will – i.e. called to pursue the project of religion? And what if this fundamental problem of religion is precisely what is addressed by the 'new heart - heart of flesh' etc promises of the Jewish scriptures, and the soteriology of the Christian scriptures?

In other words, I'm agreeing with the four horsemen that religion is a terrible thing, a thing of violence; not because of what is done in its name (that’s a straw man; nay, a straw boy), but because it involves pouring a divine will into a human vessel. This tornado-in-tupperware character of Judaism and Christianity is proof against the idea that humans created God in their image, as some kind of comfort. What’s more, embedded in the Judeo-Christian tradition is a recognition that religion - by which I mean the human attempt to do God's revealed will - is not enough to bring about a divine-human rapprochement; some sort of divine provision must be (and, we’d say, has been) made.

Of course, in all of this I’m seeing the Jewish bible through a Christian lens. Would you say the above is at all reconcilable with any of your own beliefs, or do they clash?

[this is good]
Keep writing... this is great!
Cheers, Nathan! Very much appreciated.
[this is good]
Hi Nick. I like the emphasis placed on human inability to understand the utterly transcendent, even though the will of the wholly Other is known. Nicely done.

I've written about Dawkins and the other "New" atheists and felt bad afterwards - its kinda like shooting fish in a barrel, or fighting a one armed man. I finally figured I should just walk away in pity rather than engage them even if, like in Monty Python's The Holy Grail, they, like the Black Knight, keep shouting they want to fight even after all their limbs have been hacked off. Excellent post.
[this is good]
"I’ll go further: religion is an impossibility."

Great post.

We shouldn't forget the "impossibility". It's something we step through each day on our journey.
[this is good]

I've read your posts about the New Atheists while devouring your blog, and they're top notch.

The idea of a diachronic gradient stretching from our ignorant, superstitious, religious past into our enlightened, rational, faithless future is pure sleight of brain, but so many people buy it. Science can't rule out the idea of some subjective agency or agenices operating behind the scenes of nature, because it can't tell us what forces or natural laws actually are, as distinct from their effects. Interestingly, the only thing we can experience that exists apart from these effects is subjective agency, consciousness. So when the ancients explained the world in terms of a material world underpinned by subjective consciousness(es), they were explaining it in terms of definite concepts readily to hand, rather than positing unknowables. In Occam's barbershop this counts as efficient, intellectually honest explication.

Anyway, morning break over - back to data entry. Have a good day and thanks for making me smile with the Python image.

Thanks, Murray. Happy Festival of Saint Matthias to you!

Thanks, Aput.

Post a comment

Already a Vox member? Sign in

Nick

About Me

Nick
United Kingdom
a little, maybe more

My Groups

Neighborhood

Explore friends, family, friends & family, or entire neighborhood.

Archives

  • Powered by Vox